Last Night Tater's post about amateurism sparked a good debate with Seth9 and gs85(from WLA). Lots of good points and worth a skim or read. I would post more of these but most our Live blogs are cage battles with Jen and TOB trying to one up each other.

Seth9: I take issue with the point that we should just make it open season on paying everyone however much they want
1:46
Seth9: College football is special partially because it isn't the NFL
1:46
The Hulk: I agree that athletes should be paid. I think it should be a set amount, not whoever wants to pay anybody.
1:46
The Hulk: I also think that they should have to go to class as they do now.
1:46

The Shredder: I would like to travel to a alternate 2011 where college players are paid.
1:47
Seth9: Also, it would have to be an NCAA standardized thing
1:47

The Shredder: It would kill recruiting.
1:48

The Shredder: If you were paying someone any set amount that wanted
1:48
Seth9: And I would delay payment until after college
1:48
Seth9: Agreed Shredder
1:48
The Hulk: Nah, I think it would get it back to what its supposed to be. Which school fits me best, and you can't use money as a reason then.
1:49
Seth9: That's why it should be an NCAA wide standardized deal
1:49
The Hulk: I agree
1:50

The Shredder: I work with a former MSU WR and he said times were tough in college sometimes. He said he was doing a full time job and it was hard
1:50
Seth9: Make a deal where all players get a stake in things like video game sales
1:50

The Shredder: But I do see how a free education is a serious thing
1:50
The Hulk: I also don't agree with the 5 year holding rights thing. Who the hell knows how good someone is gonna be by their 3/4/5th year in college as to a freshman.
1:51
Seth9: That's what they do in hockey and baseball,
1:51
Seth9: I'd expand it to basketball too
1:51
The Hulk: Footballs alot different than those sports tho
1:51

The Shredder: If someone would have told me "hey if you play football at UM we will pay for all the schooling and books ect" I would be like hell yea.
1:51
Seth9: And football could have a draft in which all players are elligible but cannot sign a contract until 21
1:52
The Hulk: Keep it the way it is IMO.
1:52
Seth9: It's a tricky situation
1:52
Seth9: I think you're right
1:53
Seth9: An early draft for football could turn college football into an NFL minor league
1:53
Seth9: I would design a way to explore draft status without committing to leaving though, in an ideal world
1:54
The Hulk: at 18, players in basketball/baseball/hockey can compete with older guys. Theres no way in hell a freshman in college would succeed in the NFL.
1:54
Seth9: As in, the players could go to the Combine and stuff, then decide
1:54

The Shredder: yeah that very well could happen. I dont think there is a right way of doing it. I am on the fence. A free education is a big deal but I also see the players side of it
1:54
The Hulk: I agree, move the declaring date to right before the draft or so, so players really get a good feel for where there going.
1:55

The Shredder: How much do you think UM made off the Fab 5?
1:55

The Shredder: Or anyone. Charles Woodson
1:55
Seth9: A monstrous amount.
1:56
Seth9: OTOH, how much exposure would they have gotten had they gone to a lower tier school that doesn't get nationwide coverage
1:57

The Shredder: Yeah but would that have killed their draft hopes?
1:57
Seth9: Not necessarily
1:57
Seth9: But by going to Michigan, their exposure was higher
1:57
Seth9: And thus, they had a better shot than they would have otherwise
1:58
Seth9: I mean, look at Tim Tebow
1:58
Seth9: If he went to a school that wasn't winning championships, would he even be considered for the draft?
1:59

The Shredder: No he is a bit different. C-Webb and Woodson had zero questions about them being pros
2:00

The Shredder: They were freaks from day one. Tim is a system QB. He found the right system. He was never billed as a future NFL stud
2:01
Seth9: True, but C-Webb at least could have gone to the draft after freshman year (or out of high school)
2:01
Seth9: He chose to go to Michigan even though there were other options
2:02
Seth9: Woodson is a trickier situation, but he too probably doesn't win the Heisman if he goes to, say, SDSU
2:02
Seth9: And thus would have likely fallen lower in the draft
2:03
Seth9: I personally think that the NCAA should give uniform compensation to all players of the same sport
2:03
Seth9: They should get a cut from all revenue generated directly by individual players, but not the collective team
2:03

The Shredder: I dunnno man. The NFL finds you no matter where you go. I have seen many small school players go high. Alex Smith? Carr from FSU?
2:04
Seth9: They were on ranked teams with a national profile. Furthermore, their supporting staffs were pretty good.
2:04

The Shredder: Would he have won the Heisman? No thats for sure. OSU and UM along with a great year did that for hiim
2:05

The Shredder: It's a good debat for sure
2:05

The Shredder: debate
2:05
Seth9: And I'm not saying that going to a weaker school stops you from going high in the draft, just that it makes it less likely that you would
2:05
gs85: i disagree with that seth...
2:06
gs85: in fact i would say its almost the opposite
2:06
Seth9: If you take two players of equal skill, and one goes to Alabama and one goes to UCF, who gets drafted?
2:06
Seth9: which point?
2:06
The Hulk: yea, Carr and Smith aren't really good examples. They were both on pretty damn good teams, and Fresno and Utah aren't really nobodys
2:07
gs85: how many kids have come from small schools becasue they had unbeleivable numbers playing against less than top tier competetion... they probably get lost int he shuffle at a higher profile team where they arent the man...
2:08

The Shredder: I think Woodson was so elite it wouldnt have mattered where he went.
2:08
gs85: with all the combines, and pro days now.. nfl has scouts all over the county... and when they hear about kids dominating they pay closer attention... its not like the nfl is only watching tv...
2:09
The Hulk: gogo Jared Veldheer
2:09
Seth9: That's true, but I'd argue back that the NFL is more skeptical of kids at smaller schools because they go up against inferior competition
2:10
The Hulk: scouts are usually pretty good at spotting stuff that will work at all levels
2:10
gs85: maybe but every year small school kids get tons of attention at pro days and work outs , and you always here about how they play on the football field...
2:11
gs85: i say if woodson plays against inferior competetion he has even more amazing numbers.. and perhaps gets drafted even higher, who knows...
2:11
Seth9: I'll admit that there's definitely room for questions here
2:11
gs85: level of competetion is always a thought, but we hear that so many times, its obvious that they are getting the looks at the opportunites...
2:12
gs85: kircus is a great example...
2:12
Seth9: I'm looking for some statistics on the issue, but I can't find any
2:12
gs85: put up unbelievable numbers in college and gvsu....
2:12
gs85: got drafted becasue of it...
2:12
gs85: he wouldnt have ever go off the bench at michigan...
2:13
gs85: seth i think stats would be hard to find, because remeber there is a disportionate amount of the higher level athletes at the bigger schools than the smaller schools... so you would expect the alabamas to send more to the pro's since they are getting the best of the best...
2:13
The Hulk: I think someone did a diary on that subject on mgoblog seth
2:13
The Hulk: let me see if i can find it
2:16
Seth9: Also notable is that when you go to a big name school, you generally get superior coaching and facilities to work in, so you develop more at big schools
2:16
Seth9: Which is beneficial come draft time
2:16
The Hulk: hmmm i guess it was a study on 2 and 3 star players and if one was from a premier school, if he would be more likely to go in the draft.
2:16
gs85: it would ber impossible to judge how a kid WOULD have been drafted if he went to small school instead of a big one, of vice versa... im arguing that for drafting purposes its more important to dominate a lower leve..., then it is to be average at a big school... assuming all things are equal
2:17
gs85: again seth i dont agree...
2:17
gs85: ha
2:17
gs85: rry
2:17
gs85: sorry
2:17
Seth9: lol
2:17
The Hulk: i have the link if you want to look at it
2:17
Seth9: No, I remember the diary
2:17
gs85: DIAA schools in the south have much better facilites than michigan had up untill the newest imporvements were made...
2:17
Seth9: It was interesting, but ambiguous in the conclusions that you could draw
2:17

The Shredder: you dont have to agree. It makes for good convo
2:18
gs85: the better training methods were used down here way before they made the way to the pizza eating big ten...
2:18
Seth9: I was referring to the combination of coaching and facilities
2:18
The Hulk: I want to be right dammit!
2:19
gs85: some of the best coaches are guys at the lower levels that simply dont have the pedigree or the name recognition to get a big time job...
2:19
Seth9: And I could argue back that DIAA schools develop training methods that bigger schools implement if and only if they actually work better
2:20
gs85: seth, would you argue that michigan was'nt about 25 years behind the times?
2:20
Seth9: True, but on the whole, I think that it would be foolish to argue that FCS coaching is superior to FBS coaching
2:20
gs85: seth you would be suprised....
2:20
Seth9: Michigan might have been, but was Florida or USC?
2:21
gs85: well the argument was about michigan, so im merely pointing out michigans problems...
2:21
Seth9: Yeah, but I don't think that Michigan is truly emblematic of the FBS institutions at large
2:21
gs85: smallere schools are willing to try unortodox things, to think outside of the box and to explore new schemes in order tomake up for drastic differences in tallent levels...
2:21
Seth9: I chose Michigan as a proxy by default, which was dumb in this case
2:22
gs85: almost ever major development over the past 50 years in football have trickled up, not trickled down...
2:22
Seth9: True, and some unorthadox things work
2:22
Seth9: Many don't
2:22
gs85: im not sure what you are arguing here...
2:22

The Shredder: Two QB system!
2:24
gs85: in most cases by the time you get to big time football, coaches are more like adminstrators and manajors as opposed to teachers... thats why the true teachers of the game of football so so highly coveted and hard to find...
2:24
gs85: are so
2:24
gs85: sorry
2:24
Seth9: The trickle-up development system is good for FBS institutions because they generally don't have to risk using unorthadox systems that may or may not work. Instead, they can view the FCS schools as a development center for new ideas and only utilize those that prove successful
2:25
gs85: so who is the better coach then, the one who devleopes and tries new things, or the one that takes the idea that someone else develops and implements it...
2:25
Seth9: Obviously the one who successfully develops a new system is superior
2:25
Seth9: However, the ones who fail are not
2:26
gs85: remember all im doing is resonding to this comment "I think that it would be foolish to argue that FCS coaching is superior to FBS coaching"
2:26
Seth9: I meant that in the collective sense
2:26
Seth9: Poor phrasing on my part
2:26
gs85: i dont like being called foolish,
2:26
gs85: when it comes to football theory
2:27
gs85: well yeah, obviously statistically the jobs that pay the most are going to attract the best tallent...
2:27
Seth9: I didn't mean to insult you. I was making a general point about the system, not about anything you specifically said
2:27

The Shredder: (eats popcorn)
2:27
Seth9: And yeah, that's basically the crux of my argument
2:27
gs85: my point is that the really high profile schools arent neccesarily looking for the best coach, they are looking at the best administrators...
2:28

The Shredder: What would you call RR?
2:28
Seth9: agreed
2:28
gs85: so saying that a kid that goes to a bigger school is going to get better facilites and better coaching, again isntn quite neccesarily true, imo...
2:28
Seth9: In my opinion, RR is something of an innovator
2:29
Seth9: I meant that statistically, a kid that goes to a school with higher prestige is more likely to get better facilities and coaching
2:29
gs85: in fact i have know of several nfl scouts who targetd particular players because the the reputation of the HIGHSCHOOL that they played at, and the coaching that they got there, as opposed to their college of choice...
2:29
gs85: RR, KIffin, Meyer, Stoopes... all great great teachers of the game...
2:30
Seth9: My verdict on RR as an administrator is still out
2:30
Seth9: Some of his hiring decisions have been questionable
2:30

The Shredder: How bout HARBOUGH?
2:31
Seth9: And the practice debacle raises questions there as well
2:31
gs85: i think most of that falls on mr sailboat...
2:31

The Shredder: Yeah he ahsn't helped himself in this witch hunt
2:31
gs85: RR just took the brunt of the fall
2:32
Seth9: Mr Sailboat?
2:32
gs85: the biggest problems were caused by people that report to the Ad's office, not to RR specifially
2:32
The Hulk: Martin was reportedly on a sailboat when Miles was the main candidate.....
2:32
Seth9: That's why I question his administrative abilities. As head coach, he's still ultimately responsible
2:32
Seth9: Ah yes, I'd forgotten
2:33
Seth9: [FACEPALM]